It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Has anybody experienced it/ tried it? Pontiac 326 Vs Chevy 327 Differences & Similarities. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. = Moderate 108-106 Deg. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post Required fields are marked *. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. It a 355. thanks in advance. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. The custom cams we selected all featured 0.624-inch lift (both intake and exhaust) and a 232/242-degree duration split. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by, http://www.webcamshafts.com/cam_glossary.html, http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter haft/3.htm, Webcam 86A 108LC w/1.5 vs 86B 112LC w/1.3s. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. The power and torque curve lay directly in between the last two cams, as did the peak horsepower and torque, 488.7 at 6,200 rpm and 487.1 at 4,600 rpm, respectively. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Tuning this cam would be slightly more difficult due to the reduced idle vacuum, but it is hard to argue with all the extra power. After consulting with many experts, you are still in confusion between 106 and 110- lobe separation angles. My duration will be about 230 degrees. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. FWIW. changing just the LSA on my cam wouldnt make a bit of difference on vacuum operated items E ericnova72 More for Less Racer Joined Jan 13, 2007 22,026 Posts That notion is completely false. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! JavaScript is disabled. But this is not the only reason. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. If the cylinder heads are the lungs of an engine, the camshaft is the brain. 110* LSA - lobe separation angle (lobe displacement angle) The +2* means your intake lobe centerline is advanced to obtain a 108* ICL - intake centerline and a 112* ECL - exhaust centerline. Only once the intake valve has closed can compression begin to build. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. - Sheryl Crow. The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. This cam also offered the highest torque output at 4,000 rpm with 522 lb-ft. Based on the peak numbers alone you might be tempted to grab the one with the tightest (108-degree) LSA, but there is more to a cam test than power. This was science at work, and with data in tow, it was time to crunch the numbers and find out what was going on. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Simply put, the lobe center of the camshaft controls where the power curve is applied. Maybe even 114. It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. It may not display this or other websites correctly. whats the difference in how the car will run. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. You are using an out of date browser. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. by bigjoe1 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm, Post More over-simplifications: Another difference between the two involves the power curve. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. Lobe separation angle does. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . to use this representational knowledge to guide current and future action. The lumpy-idling 101 LSA cam churned out an average of 484.0 hp at 6,100 rpm with 493.9 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm. Really wide lobe separation angles are used in boosted applications. They also reduce stress on the outdrive. See all 14 photos 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree). I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post What happens when you change ONLY. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? 112 vs 114 lobe centers You cannot tell the differance in the two . Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 282/288, Lift .589/.600, Chevy, Big Block, Kit. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. That way you can discuss what you want from the engine and how changes in LSA or any of the other specs will affect how the engine performs. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. It really comes down to the application. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . Performance Distributors Keeps The Spark Alive With SOS, A New Diesel Piston That Increases Power And Reduces, Shop Tour: Brian Tooley Racing Expands To Be A One-Stop, Melling Offers New Timing Kits for Ford 4.6L and 5.4L SOHC, Reborn Retro Blower Packs Positive-Displacement Power For Fox, EngineLabs Tool Of The Month: Summit Racing Lb-In Torque, Why You Should NOT Emissions Delete Your Diesel, Can A Cold Air Intake Really Help Your Trucks, Ask The Expert: We Want Your Questions For Canton Racing, The Answers: DeatschWerks Responses To Your Fuel System, SEMA 2022: GEARWRENCH Leveled Up With Distinct Quality Hand, EngineLabs Tool Of The Month: Summit Racing AN Wrench, HOLY SHIP! Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open.. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. 108 versus 110 will drive the power band down. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. = Tight Below 104 Deg. Read More Chevy 350 Ignition Coil Location And Everything About ThemContinue, What causes a car to bog down when accelerating? Your best bet would be to talk to one of the experts at a cam company to get a custom grind if you're that into the specs. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. such as 290 @.050? 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" indeed, expect low vacuum with anything lower than 110-ish. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Thanks. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. . 108: 110: 112: 114 . . But that doesnt mean high-strung racing engines cant see gains, as well. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post Thanks for the replies, particularly that link Marc, very informative. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. But i would nt go any wider than 110. Hey guys, can anyone tell me how rough of a idle a cam would be with a 108 lobe separation? Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. I have Crane hydraulic link bar style roller lifters, so I dont have to use the spider style. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. 4-Link72, do you run racing gas or pump with 10.5:1 CR? The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. (2002) et rappel sur une carte hors texte. Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. If you take any of the . Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. And better gas mileage. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. A cam card with its myriad numbers, acronyms, and abbreviations is one red-pen stroke away from a failed math test. also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. However, in application, there is a lot more to consider. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. There are General guidelines about the effects of LSA but it should not be the deciding factor in choosing a cam. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. Is There a Sequence? Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! We promise not to use your email address for anything but exclusive updates from the Power Automedia Network. 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree) LSA (green lines) lost considerable torque to the other two cams. It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? Compression willl be 9.75:1. Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap.